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</head><body><p>Lieber Herr Witte,<br></p><p>vielen Dank für Ihre Hinweise.<br></p><p>Und keine Sorge: Es beschäftigen sich bereits SpezialistInnen im D-A-CH-Raum mit diesen Fragen, nämlich die KollegInnen von der neu eingesetzten AG Bild. Die haben mich auch auf die Problematik aufmerksam gemacht (Sie werden das Beispiel aus dem Lehrbuch vielleicht erkannt haben). Im Moment geht es mir nur darum zu erfahren, wie die amerikanischen KollegInnen damit umgehen und wie sie die m.E. etwas merkwürdigen RDA-Regeln in diesem Bereich einschätzen. Etwaige Erkenntnisse werden natürlich in die hiesige Diskussion einfließen.<br></p><p>Viele Grüße<br>Heidrun Wiesenmüller<br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><blockquote type="cite">Biblothek OKR Oldb <witte.gerd@gmx.de> hat am 21. März 2017 um 17:47 geschrieben:<br><br><div class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-cite-prefix"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">Sehr geehrte Frau <span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_diagnostic"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_format_d"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_isbd"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_expanded">Wiesenmüller,</span></span></span></span><br> <br> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_diagnostic"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_format_d"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_isbd"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_expanded"> schade, dass Sie das Thema der Verfasserschaft von Graphi<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">ken </span>nicht in Deutschland diskutieren, den<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">n <span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">m<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">ich interessiert </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_diagnostic"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_format_d"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_isbd"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_expanded"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_diagnostic"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_format_d"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_isbd"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_expanded">schon auch die Meinung von Kollginnen und Kollegen in dt.-sprachigen Bibliotheken<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">, vor allen Dingen natürlich der </span>Kunst- und Museumsbibliotheken.</span></span></span></span></span><br> <span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><br> Und da Ihre Frag<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">e</span> <span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">i</span></span>n der amerikan. rda-Liste<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"> i<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">ns Hintertreffen geraten ist, weil gerade <span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">tüchtig hin- und herphilosophiert wird, o<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">b die Katze (Socks)<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"> der<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"> Clint<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">ons <span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">geistiger Schöpfer sein kann (<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">eine Frage, die die Welt bewegt<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"> ...</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>), möchte ich <span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">einige<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"> <span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">Hinweise an die</span></span></span> deutsch<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">-<span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">spr.</span></span> Liste </span></span></span></span></span>schicken.<br> <br> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_diagnostic"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_format_d"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_isbd"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_expanded">In einem amerikanischen Regelwerk DCRM(G): Descriptive Cataloging of Rare Materials (Graphics) </span></span></span></span><a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://rbms.info/dcrm/dcrmg/"><https://rbms.info/dcrm/dcrmg/></a> ist unter F1.3. Main and Added Entry Choices S. 168 ff zu lesen:<br> <br> Material: Lithograph with named lithographer, artist, and printer<br> Main entry: Lithographer<br> Added entry: Artist and printer<br> <br> Gibt es im D-A-CH-Raum etwas vergleichbares?<br> <br> Entsprechend würde ich Ihr Beispiel<br> </span><blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">Here is an example:<br> </span> <span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/purl/bsz356825272/page/1">http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/purl/bsz356825272/page/1</a><br> </span> <span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">The small text underneath the picture reads:<br> "Gemalt von Gustav Steinkopf" (painted by Gustav Steinkopf)<br> "Gedr. v. G. Küstner" (printed by G. Küstner)<br> "Auf Stein gez. v. E. Emminger" (drawn on stone by E. Emminger)</span></blockquote><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><br> auch mit RDA so umsetzen:<br> <br> Emminger, Eberhard,</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">1808-1885</span></span></span>:<br> Das königliche Landhaus Rosenstein : vom Würtembergischen Kunst-Verein / gemalt von Gustav Steinkopf ; Gedr. v. G. Küstner ; Auf Stein gez. v. E. Emminger. - [Stuttgart] : Küstner, [1835?]. - 1 Lithographie. ; 46,3 x 60,3 cm. - Blattgröße 54,3 x 67,0 cm<br> Richtiger Künstlername: "Gottlob Steinkopf"<br> <br> In Marc 21-Feldern in Auswahl<br> </span><br> <span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">100 1 $aEmminger, Eberhard$d1808-1885$eLithografIn$4ltg<br> 245 14$aDas königliche Landhaus Rosenstein$hObjekt$bvom Würtembergischen Kunst-Verein$cgemalt von Gustav Steinkopf ; Gedr. v. G. Küstner ; Auf Stein gez. v. E. Emminger<br> 260 3 $a[Stuttgart]$bKüstner$c[1835?]<br> 300 $a1 Lithographie$c46,3 x 60,3 cm. - Blattgröße 54,3 x 67,0 cm<br> 500 $aRichtiger Künstlername: "Gottlob Steinkopf"<br> 700 1 $aSteinkopf, Gottlob Friedrich$eKünstlerIn$4art<br> 700 1 $aKüstner, Gottfried$eDruckerIn$4prt</span></span><br> <br> </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"> Die falsche Namensform "</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">Steinkopf, </span></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">Gustav</span></span></span>" würde ich im Normsatz unterbringen. <br> <br> Was die Palmer/Currier-Lithografie angeht müsste nach den </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_diagnostic"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_format_d"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_isbd"><span class="ox-3299ccb251-ibw_expanded"> DCRM(G)</span></span></span></span></span> genauso verfahren werden<br> <br> Palmer, F. (Fanny), 1812-1876,<br> Woodcock shooting. [graphic] / From nature and on stone by F.F. Palmer. ; Lith. of N. Currier N.Y. <br> </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Publication date: 1852</span></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><br> <a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://catalog.mwa.org/vwebv/holdingsInfo?bibId=391323">http://catalog.mwa.org/vwebv/holdingsInfo?bibId=391323</a><br> <br> Und im Staff view:</span><br><ul><li class="ox-3299ccb251-dataField"><label class="ox-3299ccb251-tagLabel">100</label><label class="ox-3299ccb251-tagLabel2">1_</label><span class="ox-3299ccb251-fieldText">  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">a</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">Palmer, F.</span>  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">q</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">(Fanny),</span>  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">d</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">1812-1876,</span>  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">e</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">lithographer.</span></span></li><li class="ox-3299ccb251-dataField"><label class="ox-3299ccb251-tagLabel">245</label><label class="ox-3299ccb251-tagLabel2">10</label><span class="ox-3299ccb251-fieldText">  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">a</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">Woodcock shooting.</span>  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">h</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">[graphic] /</span>  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">c</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">From nature and on stone by F.F. Palmer. ; Lith. of N. Currier N.Y.</span></span></li><li class="ox-3299ccb251-dataField"><label class="ox-3299ccb251-tagLabel">700</label><label class="ox-3299ccb251-tagLabel2">16</label><span class="ox-3299ccb251-fieldText">  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">a</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">Palmer, F.</span>  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">q</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">(Fanny),</span>  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">d</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">1812-1876,</span>  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">e</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">illustrator.</span></span></li><li class="ox-3299ccb251-dataField"><label class="ox-3299ccb251-tagLabel">700</label><label class="ox-3299ccb251-tagLabel2">16</label><span class="ox-3299ccb251-fieldText">  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">a</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">Currier, Nathaniel,</span>  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">d</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">1813-1888,</span>  |<span class="ox-3299ccb251-boldit">e</span> <span class="ox-3299ccb251-subfieldMarcData">lithographer.</span></span></li></ul><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">Im der von Ihnen zitierten Angabe aus dem Toolkit ist lediglich das E-Jahr wegen der weitgehend entbehr- und unsäglichen Copyright-Regel in </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">[]-Klammer </span>gesetzt. (Kann jemand erklären, warum das Jahr hinter (c) nicht das E-Jahr sein soll?)<br> <br> (Mit dem Kitsch von Herrn Moore sollte man sich besser nicht näher befassen ...)<br> <br> Die Frage, ob die "künstlerische[n] Übersetzungen eines Gemäldes in ein druckgraphisches Bild – nicht als bloße Wiedergabe, sondern als eine zweite Erscheinungsform des Kunstwerks" <a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://books.google.de/books?id=QYTJBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA121#v=onepage&q&f=false">https://books.google.de/books?id=QYTJBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA121#v=onepage&q&f=false</a> angesehen werden können, sollten die Kolleginnen der  Kunst- und Museumsbibliotheken beantworten.<br> <br> Ich möchte aber fragen, ob es denn wirklich so ist, dass RDA so unflexibel ausgelegt werden muss, dass  <span class="ox-3299ccb251-bold">die Beziehungskennzeichnungen Lithograf</span>  oder Stecher nur für sonstige Personen benutzt werden dürfen?<br> <br> Worauf bezieht sich der Absatz in RDA 19.2.1.1?:<br> <br> In einigen Fällen verändert die Modifizierung eines zuvor bestehenden Werks die Art oder den Inhalt des Originals substantiell und führt zu einem neuen Werk. Wenn das der Fall ist, wird die Person, die Familie oder die Körperschaft, die für die Modifizierung des zuvor bestehenden Werks verantwortlich ist, als geistiger Schöpfer des neuen Werks angesehen. <a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://access.rdatoolkit.org/rdachp19_rda19-403.html">http://access.rdatoolkit.org/rdachp19_rda19-403.html</a><br> <br> <br> Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br> <br> Gerd Witte<br> Evang.-luth. Oberkirchenrat, Bibliothek<br> Philosophenweg 1<br> 26121 Oldenburg</span><br> <br> Anhang:<br> <br> Das Gemälde ist von Gottlob Friedrich Steinkopf <a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/pnd142817481.html">https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/pnd142817481.html</a>) (<a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://digitalesammlungen.uni-weimar.de/viewer/image/PPN623587556/299/"><http://digitalesammlungen.uni-weimar.de/viewer/image/PPN623587556/299/></a> <br> <a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://digitalesammlungen.uni-weimar.de/viewer/image/PPN623587556/301/"><http://digitalesammlungen.uni-weimar.de/viewer/image/PPN623587556/301/></a> (die Vorlage von <a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://swb.bsz-bw.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=356825272&INDEXSET=1"><http://swb.bsz-bw.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=356825272&INDEXSET=1></a> ist Schefold 8666<br> (Schefold 8667 Variante: mit berichtigtem Künstlernamen »Gottlob Steinkopf«)<br> <br> Gemälde von Steinkopf:<br> <a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Gottlob_Friedrich_Steinkopf,_010.jpg">https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Gottlob_Friedrich_Steinkopf,_010.jpg</a><br> <br> Die Lithografie hier:<br> <a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://pictures.abebooks.com/KOENITZ/16811876058.jpg">http://pictures.abebooks.com/KOENITZ/16811876058.jpg</a><br> <a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/filegroups/steikoni_356825272/max/00000001.jpg">http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/filegroups/steikoni_356825272/max/00000001.jpg</a><br> <br> Am 18.03.2017 um 22:01 schrieb Heidrun Wiesenmüller:<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><p>I remember that we discussed the position of "lithographer" in appendix I a little while ago, but now I have a different question (or rather, questions) with respect to lithographers.</p><p>The definition in the appendix at I.4.1 is:<br> "lithographer: An agent involved in manufacturing a manifestation by preparing a stone or plate for lithographic printing.<br> A lithographer includes a graphic artist creating a design directly on the surface from which printing will be done."</p><p>In the second case mentioned, I think the lithographer must needs also be the creator of the work (assuming that the litographer in this case draws his or her own design). But what about cases when the lithographer uses a painting done by somebody else and transfers this on the stone?</p><p>Here is an example:<br> <a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/purl/bsz356825272/page/1">http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/purl/bsz356825272/page/1</a><br></p><p>The small text underneath the picture reads:<br> "Gemalt von Gustav Steinkopf" (painted by Gustav Steinkopf)<br> "Gedr. v. G. Küstner" (printed by G. Küstner)<br> "Auf Stein gez. v. E. Emminger" (drawn on stone by E. Emminger)<br></p><p>Until very recently, I would have thought that Steinkopf as the original painter is also the creator of the lithograph, and that Emminger as the lithographer has a relationship to the manifestation only (because that's where the relationship designator "lithographer" is listed). But now I'm no longer sure.</p><p>I don't know a lot about lithography, but obviously a lithograph is not simply a copy of the original. Even if the contours are replicated exactly (e.g. by the help of a projection of the original), the toning is certainly achieved differently. So, I think that the version on the stone must at least be a new expression of the original work. But then, shouldn't the lithographer have a relationship on expression level instead of manifestation level?</p><p>I'm also confused by this example given at 21.6.1.3:<br></p><p>Currier, Nathaniel, 1813–1888 <br> Authorized access point representing the lithographer for: <span class="ox-3299ccb251-NotEmphasis"> Woodcock shooting / from nature and on stone by F.F. Palmer ; lith. of N. Currier N.Y. — New York : Currier & Ives, [1852].</span> A lithograph</p><p>What exactly was the function of Currier here? He didnt't do the drawing on stone, because that was done by Palmer (who is not listed as a lithographer, although this might have been expected according to the definition). So did Currier merely have technical responsibilities, like applying the necessary solution after the image was drawn? Or does it mean that he produced the copies from the lithographic stone (but then, wouldn't he be a printer)?<br></p><p>There is also a lithography example for an authorized access point at 6.27.1.8 (Works of Uncertain or Unknown Origin):</p><div class="ox-3299ccb251-Exampleentry" id="ox-3299ccb251-rda6-6837"><div class="ox-3299ccb251-simplesect" id="ox-3299ccb251-rda6-6838"><div class="ox-3299ccb251-para" id="ox-3299ccb251-rda6-11056">Summer night</div></div></div><div class="ox-3299ccb251-footnotes"><div class="ox-3299ccb251-footnote" id="ox-3299ccb251-rda6-6839"><div class="ox-3299ccb251-footnote-text"><div class="ox-3299ccb251-para" id="ox-3299ccb251-rda6-6840">Resource described: <span class="ox-3299ccb251-NotEmphasis">Summer night.</span> An anonymous lithograph of a painting by Albert Moore<br> <br> This implies that the lithograph is not an expression of the original painting (because Albert Moore is not a part of the access point), but rather a new work, whose creator we do not know. But wouldn't that mean that *every* lithograph based on an existing painting is automatically a new work, and the person who's drawn the image on stone (whom I would have called a lithographer) is a creator?<br> <br> A lithograph might be a new work according to RDA 6.27.1.5: "If an adaptation or revision of an existing work substantially changes the nature and content of that work, treat the adaptation or revision as a new work."<br> <br> There is indeed an example from the arts in this instruction:<br> <br><div class="ox-3299ccb251-Exampleentry" id="ox-3299ccb251-rda6-6732"><div class="ox-3299ccb251-simplesect" id="ox-3299ccb251-rda6-6733"><div class="ox-3299ccb251-para" id="ox-3299ccb251-rda6-6734">Sartain, John, 1808–1897. Artist’s dream</div></div></div><div class="ox-3299ccb251-footnotes"><div class="ox-3299ccb251-footnote" id="ox-3299ccb251-rda6-6735"><div class="ox-3299ccb251-footnote-text"><div class="ox-3299ccb251-para" id="ox-3299ccb251-rda6-6736">An engraving by Sartain based on an original painting by George H. Comegys</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p>So do both engravings and lithographs "substantially change the nature and content" of the original work? But if this is the case, then why are engravers and lithographers listed at I.4, and not at I.2.1, together with other creators?</p><p>Sorry for asking so many questions. But I've got the weird feeling of walking in circles. Either I simply don't get it (maybe because of my inedaquate knowledge of the techniques involved), or there is something of a muddle here...<br></p><p>Any insights are highly appreciated!</p><p>Heidrun<br></p><br><pre class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-signature">--
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Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Nobelstrasse 10, 70569 Stuttgart, Germany
<a class="ox-3299ccb251-moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi">www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi</a><br></pre><br> <br><pre>You have received this message because you are a subscriber to the RDA-L discussion list.
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