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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif">Sehr geehrte Frau <span class="ibw_diagnostic"><span
class="ibw_format_d"><span class="ibw_isbd"><span
class="ibw_expanded">Wiesenmüller,</span></span></span></span><br>
<span class="ibw_diagnostic"><span class="ibw_format_d"><span
class="ibw_isbd"><span class="ibw_expanded"> </span></span></span></span><br>
<span class="ibw_diagnostic"><span class="ibw_format_d"><span
class="ibw_isbd"><span class="ibw_expanded"> schade, dass
Sie das Thema der Verfasserschaft von Graphi<font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">ken </font>nicht
in Deutschland diskutieren, den<font face="Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif">n <font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif">m<font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif">ich interessiert </font></font></font></span></span></span></span></font><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class="ibw_diagnostic"><span
class="ibw_format_d"><span class="ibw_isbd"><span
class="ibw_expanded"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif"><span class="ibw_diagnostic"><span
class="ibw_format_d"><span class="ibw_isbd"><span
class="ibw_expanded">schon auch die Meinung
von Kollginnen und Kollegen in dt.-sprachigen
Bibliotheken<font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif">, vor allen Dingen natürlich der
</font>Kunst- und Museumsbibliotheken.</span></span></span></span></font><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><br>
Und da Ihre Frag<font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif">e</font> <font face="Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif">i</font></font>n der
amerikan. rda-Liste<font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif"> i<font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif">ns Hintertreffen geraten ist, weil
gerade <font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif">tüchtig hin- und
herphilosophiert wird, o<font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">b die
Katze (Socks)<font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif"> der<font face="Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif"> Clint<font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">ons
<font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif">geistiger Schöpfer
sein kann (<font face="Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif"><font
face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif">eine Frage, die
die Welt bewegt<font
face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif"> ...</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>),
möchte ich <font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">einige<font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"> <font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Hinweise an
die</font></font></font> deutsch<font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">-<font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">spr.</font></font>
Liste </font></span></span></span></span>schicken.<br>
<span class="ibw_diagnostic"><span class="ibw_format_d"><span
class="ibw_isbd"><span class="ibw_expanded"> </span></span></span></span><br>
<span class="ibw_diagnostic"><span class="ibw_format_d"><span
class="ibw_isbd"><span class="ibw_expanded">In einem
amerikanischen Regelwerk DCRM(G): Descriptive Cataloging
of Rare Materials (Graphics) </span></span></span></span><a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="https://rbms.info/dcrm/dcrmg/"><https://rbms.info/dcrm/dcrmg/></a>
ist unter F1.3. Main and Added Entry Choices S. 168 ff zu lesen:<br>
<br>
Material: Lithograph with named lithographer, artist, and
printer<br>
Main entry: Lithographer<br>
Added entry: Artist and printer<br>
<br>
Gibt es im D-A-CH-Raum etwas vergleichbares?<br>
<br>
Entsprechend würde ich Ihr Beispiel<br>
</font>
<blockquote type="cite"><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Here
is an example:<br>
</font> <font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/purl/bsz356825272/page/1">http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/purl/bsz356825272/page/1</a><br>
</font> <font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">The small
text underneath the picture reads:<br>
"Gemalt von Gustav Steinkopf" (painted by Gustav Steinkopf)<br>
"Gedr. v. G. Küstner" (printed by G. Küstner)<br>
"Auf Stein gez. v. E. Emminger" (drawn on stone by E.
Emminger)</font></blockquote>
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<![endif]--><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><br>
auch mit RDA so umsetzen:<br>
<br>
Emminger, Eberhard,</font><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif"><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-ansi-language:DE">1808-1885</span></font></font>:<br>
Das königliche Landhaus Rosenstein : vom Würtembergischen
Kunst-Verein / gemalt von Gustav Steinkopf ; Gedr. v. G. Küstner
; Auf Stein gez. v. E. Emminger. - [Stuttgart] : Küstner,
[1835?]. - 1 Lithographie. ; 46,3 x 60,3 cm. - Blattgröße 54,3 x
67,0 cm<br>
Richtiger Künstlername: "Gottlob Steinkopf"<br>
<br>
In Marc 21-Feldern in Auswahl<br>
</font><br>
<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><font face="Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-ansi-language:DE">100 1
$aEmminger, Eberhard$d1808-1885$eLithografIn$4ltg<br>
245 14$aDas königliche Landhaus Rosenstein$hObjekt$bvom
Würtembergischen Kunst-Verein$cgemalt von Gustav Steinkopf ;
Gedr. v. G. Küstner ; Auf Stein gez. v. E. Emminger<br>
260 3 $a[Stuttgart]$bKüstner$c[1835?]<br>
300 $a1 Lithographie$c46,3 x 60,3 cm. - Blattgröße 54,3 x
67,0 cm<br>
500 $aRichtiger Künstlername: "Gottlob Steinkopf"<br>
700 1 $aSteinkopf, Gottlob Friedrich$eKünstlerIn$4art<br>
700 1 $aKüstner, Gottfried$eDruckerIn$4prt</span></font><br>
<br>
</font><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"> Die falsche
Namensform "</font><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Steinkopf, </font></font><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><font face="Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif"><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Gustav</font></font></font>"
würde ich im Normsatz unterbringen. <br>
<br>
Was die Palmer/Currier-Lithografie angeht müsste nach den </font><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><font face="Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif"><span class="ibw_diagnostic"><span
class="ibw_format_d"><span class="ibw_isbd"><span
class="ibw_expanded"> DCRM(G)</span></span></span></span></font>
genauso verfahren werden<br>
<br>
Palmer, F. (Fanny), 1812-1876,<br>
Woodcock shooting. [graphic] / From nature and on stone by F.F.
Palmer. ; Lith. of N. Currier N.Y. <br>
</font><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">Publication date: 1852</span></font><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:
12pt;"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://catalog.mwa.org/vwebv/holdingsInfo?bibId=391323">http://catalog.mwa.org/vwebv/holdingsInfo?bibId=391323</a><br>
<br>
Und im Staff view:</font><br>
<ul>
<li class="dataField"> <label class="tagLabel">100</label><label
class="tagLabel2">1_</label><span class="fieldText"> |<span
class="boldit">a</span> <span class="subfieldMarcData">Palmer,
F.</span> |<span class="boldit">q</span> <span
class="subfieldMarcData">(Fanny),</span> |<span
class="boldit">d</span> <span class="subfieldMarcData">1812-1876,</span>
|<span class="boldit">e</span> <span
class="subfieldMarcData">lithographer.</span></span> </li>
<li class="dataField"> <label class="tagLabel">245</label><label
class="tagLabel2">10</label><span class="fieldText"> |<span
class="boldit">a</span> <span class="subfieldMarcData">Woodcock
shooting.</span> |<span class="boldit">h</span> <span
class="subfieldMarcData">[graphic] /</span> |<span
class="boldit">c</span> <span class="subfieldMarcData">From
nature and on stone by F.F. Palmer. ; Lith. of N. Currier
N.Y.</span></span></li>
<li class="dataField"> <label class="tagLabel">700</label><label
class="tagLabel2">16</label><span class="fieldText"> |<span
class="boldit">a</span> <span class="subfieldMarcData">Palmer,
F.</span> |<span class="boldit">q</span> <span
class="subfieldMarcData">(Fanny),</span> |<span
class="boldit">d</span> <span class="subfieldMarcData">1812-1876,</span>
|<span class="boldit">e</span> <span
class="subfieldMarcData">illustrator.</span></span> </li>
<li class="dataField"> <label class="tagLabel">700</label><label
class="tagLabel2">16</label><span class="fieldText"> |<span
class="boldit">a</span> <span class="subfieldMarcData">Currier,
Nathaniel,</span> |<span class="boldit">d</span> <span
class="subfieldMarcData">1813-1888,</span> |<span
class="boldit">e</span> <span class="subfieldMarcData">lithographer.</span></span>
</li>
</ul>
<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Im der von Ihnen
zitierten Angabe aus dem Toolkit ist lediglich das E-Jahr wegen
der weitgehend entbehr- und unsäglichen Copyright-Regel in </font><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><font face="Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif">[]-Klammer </font>gesetzt. (Kann jemand
erklären, warum das Jahr hinter (c) nicht das E-Jahr sein soll?)<br>
<br>
(Mit dem Kitsch von Herrn Moore sollte man sich besser nicht
näher befassen ...)<br>
<br>
Die Frage, ob die "künstlerische[n] Übersetzungen eines Gemäldes
in ein druckgraphisches Bild – nicht als bloße Wiedergabe,
sondern als eine zweite Erscheinungsform des Kunstwerks" <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://books.google.de/books?id=QYTJBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA121#v=onepage&q&f=false">https://books.google.de/books?id=QYTJBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA121#v=onepage&q&f=false</a>
angesehen werden können, sollten die Kolleginnen der Kunst- und
Museumsbibliotheken beantworten.<br>
<br>
Ich möchte aber fragen, ob es denn wirklich so ist, dass RDA so
unflexibel ausgelegt werden muss, dass <span class="bold">die
Beziehungskennzeichnungen Lithograf</span> oder Stecher nur
für sonstige Personen benutzt werden dürfen?<br>
<br>
Worauf bezieht sich der Absatz in RDA 19.2.1.1?:<br>
<br>
In einigen Fällen verändert die Modifizierung eines zuvor
bestehenden Werks die Art oder den Inhalt des Originals
substantiell und führt zu einem neuen Werk. Wenn das der Fall
ist, wird die Person, die Familie oder die Körperschaft, die für
die Modifizierung des zuvor bestehenden Werks verantwortlich
ist, als geistiger Schöpfer des neuen Werks angesehen. <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://access.rdatoolkit.org/rdachp19_rda19-403.html">http://access.rdatoolkit.org/rdachp19_rda19-403.html</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
<br>
Gerd Witte<br>
Evang.-luth. Oberkirchenrat, Bibliothek<br>
Philosophenweg 1<br>
26121 Oldenburg</font><br>
<br>
<font size="-2">Anhang:<br>
<br>
Das Gemälde ist von Gottlob Friedrich Steinkopf <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/pnd142817481.html">https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/pnd142817481.html</a>)
(<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="http://digitalesammlungen.uni-weimar.de/viewer/image/PPN623587556/299/"><http://digitalesammlungen.uni-weimar.de/viewer/image/PPN623587556/299/></a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="http://digitalesammlungen.uni-weimar.de/viewer/image/PPN623587556/301/"><http://digitalesammlungen.uni-weimar.de/viewer/image/PPN623587556/301/></a>
(die Vorlage von <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="http://swb.bsz-bw.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=356825272&INDEXSET=1"><http://swb.bsz-bw.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=356825272&INDEXSET=1></a>
ist Schefold 8666<br>
(Schefold 8667 Variante: mit berichtigtem Künstlernamen »Gottlob
Steinkopf«)<br>
<span class="ibw_diagnostic"><span class="ibw_format_d"><span
class="ibw_isbd"><span class="ibw_expanded"></span></span></span></span>
<br>
Gemälde von Steinkopf:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Gottlob_Friedrich_Steinkopf,_010.jpg">https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Gottlob_Friedrich_Steinkopf,_010.jpg</a><br>
<br>
Die Lithografie hier:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://pictures.abebooks.com/KOENITZ/16811876058.jpg">http://pictures.abebooks.com/KOENITZ/16811876058.jpg</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/filegroups/steikoni_356825272/max/00000001.jpg">http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/filegroups/steikoni_356825272/max/00000001.jpg</a></font><br>
<br>
Am 18.03.2017 um 22:01 schrieb Heidrun Wiesenmüller:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:eece86cc-350c-f7d4-663b-e3a39b3e9db2@hdm-stuttgart.de"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>I remember that we discussed the position of "lithographer" in
appendix I a little while ago, but now I have a different
question (or rather, questions) with respect to lithographers.</p>
<p>The definition in the appendix at I.4.1 is:<br>
"lithographer: An agent involved in manufacturing a
manifestation by preparing a stone or plate for lithographic
printing.<br>
A lithographer includes a graphic artist creating a design
directly on the surface from which printing will be done."</p>
<p>In the second case mentioned, I think the lithographer must
needs also be the creator of the work (assuming that the
litographer in this case draws his or her own design). But what
about cases when the lithographer uses a painting done by
somebody else and transfers this on the stone?</p>
<p>Here is an example:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/purl/bsz356825272/page/1">http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/purl/bsz356825272/page/1</a></p>
<p>The small text underneath the picture reads:<br>
"Gemalt von Gustav Steinkopf" (painted by Gustav Steinkopf)<br>
"Gedr. v. G. Küstner" (printed by G. Küstner)<br>
"Auf Stein gez. v. E. Emminger" (drawn on stone by E. Emminger)<br>
</p>
<p>Until very recently, I would have thought that Steinkopf as the
original painter is also the creator of the lithograph, and that
Emminger as the lithographer has a relationship to the
manifestation only (because that's where the relationship
designator "lithographer" is listed). But now I'm no longer
sure.</p>
<p>I don't know a lot about lithography, but obviously a
lithograph is not simply a copy of the original. Even if the
contours are replicated exactly (e.g. by the help of a
projection of the original), the toning is certainly achieved
differently. So, I think that the version on the stone must at
least be a new expression of the original work. But then,
shouldn't the lithographer have a relationship on expression
level instead of manifestation level?</p>
<p>I'm also confused by this example given at 21.6.1.3:<br>
</p>
<p>Currier, Nathaniel, 1813–1888 <br>
Authorized access point representing the lithographer for: <span
class="NotEmphasis"> Woodcock shooting / from nature and on
stone by F.F. Palmer ; lith. of N. Currier N.Y. — New York :
Currier & Ives, [1852].</span> A lithograph</p>
<p>What exactly was the function of Currier here? He didnt't do
the drawing on stone, because that was done by Palmer (who is
not listed as a lithographer, although this might have been
expected according to the definition). So did Currier merely
have technical responsibilities, like applying the necessary
solution after the image was drawn? Or does it mean that he
produced the copies from the lithographic stone (but then,
wouldn't he be a printer)?<br>
</p>
<p>There is also a lithography example for an authorized access
point at 6.27.1.8 (Works<span class="special-letter"> </span>of
Uncertain or Unknown Origin):</p>
<div class="Exampleentry" id="rda6-6837">
<div class="simplesect" id="rda6-6838">
<div class="para" id="rda6-11056">Summer night </div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="footnotes">
<div class="footnote" id="rda6-6839">
<div class="footnote-text">
<div class="para" id="rda6-6840">Resource described: <span
class="NotEmphasis">Summer night.</span> An anonymous
lithograph of a painting by Albert Moore<br>
<br>
This implies that the lithograph is not an expression of
the original painting (because Albert Moore is not a part
of the access point), but rather a new work, whose creator
we do not know. But wouldn't that mean that *every*
lithograph based on an existing painting is automatically
a new work, and the person who's drawn the image on stone
(whom I would have called a lithographer) is a creator?<br>
<br>
A lithograph might be a new work according to RDA
6.27.1.5: "If an adaptation or revision of an existing
work substantially changes the nature and content of that
work, treat the adaptation or revision as a new work."<br>
<br>
There is indeed an example from the arts in this
instruction:<br>
<br>
<div class="Exampleentry" id="rda6-6732">
<div class="simplesect" id="rda6-6733">
<div class="para" id="rda6-6734">Sartain, John,
1808–1897. Artist’s dream </div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="footnotes">
<div class="footnote" id="rda6-6735">
<div class="footnote-text">
<div class="para" id="rda6-6736">An engraving by
Sartain based on an original painting by George H.
Comegys </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p>So do both engravings and lithographs "substantially change the
nature and content" of the original work? But if this is the
case, then why are engravers and lithographers listed at I.4,
and not at I.2.1, together with other creators?</p>
<p>Sorry for asking so many questions. But I've got the weird
feeling of walking in circles. Either I simply don't get it
(maybe because of my inedaquate knowledge of the techniques
involved), or there is something of a muddle here...<br>
</p>
<p>Any insights are highly appreciated!</p>
<p>Heidrun<br>
</p>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
---------------------
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Nobelstrasse 10, 70569 Stuttgart, Germany
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi">www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi</a></pre>
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